Provisional employees in municipal government are employees who are working in their specific city title but haven’t been hired permanently from a civil service list. This occurs for many reasons; a test hasn’t been offered, they were hired after a list was exhausted and another test wasn’t given, or maybe they didn’t pass the last exam but the previous exam exhausted all candidates and they were able to stay working.
Some administrations prefer keeping provisionals. Provisionals don’t have the same protections as do permanent employees, thus they are easier to get rid of if money gets tight, or an area needs “restructuring”, or any other reason where you want flexibility in your staffing. Provisionals tend to be more compliant and may overlook things that are not quite adequate so they don’t “rock the boat” and risk losing their job. Some jobs are unique and don’t have many people working in a certain title, and therefore it would be costly to host a test for a handful of incumbents.
A particular legal case was presented regarding municipal workers in Long Beach, NY, where their Civil Service Commission recognized that many provisionals were serving well beyond the maximum 9 MONTHS of service. Many had several years of service; one had 19 years of service as a provisional. The local contract had protections for provisionals, but that was later overruled by the courts .
Because of that, NY Civil Service Law 65 was enacted to require all municipalities to reduce their provisional counts, with NYC DCAS specifically addressed in the law. It states that NYC needs to reduce its provisional count to 5%; a very tall order considering that there were 30,000 provisionals in NYC in 2008.
Since then, DCAS has administered dozens of tests in order to meet the 5% challenge. However, they only had seven years to do it and needed extensions to continue the reduction.
One of the problems with the original provisional reduction plan, was that many, like the 19-year provisional in Long Beach, are serving in their titles and capacities for years. If they don’t pass their exam or are not “reachable” on the list (this document has very good information on ‘reachable’), then their experience, specific knowledge of the work environment and specific job, as well as proficiency and capabilities will be difficult, if not impossible, to regain, even though the replacement candidate passed the general test. Do this thousands of times and you’ve got a real problem in providing services and continuing expensive large-scale projects.
So, recently, a bill signed by Gov. Cuomo Nov. 28 will provide a chance for almost 5,000 provisionals to be appointed to their jobs permanently. This amendment to the 2008 Civil Service Law allows the Department of Citywide Administrative Services to administer a one-time “Qualified Incumbents Exam” for 194 titles, as long as they do not have upcoming open-competitive exams.
So, providing a “Qualified Incumbents Exam”, or QIE, to these provisionals working in their specific task, will reduce the loss of this knowledge base, presuming the incumbent passes the QIE.
The largest city union, DC37, agrees with this plan because it doesn’t penalize the provisional just because the city didn’t hold the exams .
So, for those working as a provisional for two years or more, here’s your one-shot to take the test AND stay where you’re working. It’s good for you – and good for the city.
Questions and Comments welcomed below.
Good Morning,
About 4 years ago I was hired as a provisional employee and thanks to this opportunity I was able to take the QIE test and became a permanent city employee. Currently I’m still holding the same civil service title I had 4 years ago. However, I noticed that the Notice of Examination for my tittle says that I should have moved to a higher level of my civil service tittle after 2 years of service. I talked to human resources about that situation and was told that I need a performance evaluation from my supervisor. My supervisor first was ignoring me with that situation so I had a conversation with the director of my Unit. My supervising is taking like “forever” to do that evaluation so I am confused if the city owns me any compensation for the period of time my supervisor has ignored me.
Thanks
Hi Luis,
I’m not sure what title you’re in but I found an NOE for “BUS MAINTAINER – GROUP A” that I can use for an example .
Now this is a regular NOE, and I’m not sure if your particular salary with that statement of increments or increase was from a job posting or such. But I would speculate that if they didn’t follow the agreed or posted increment(s) – and they are dragging their feet – then you may have a grievance. If you’re in a union title I suggest that you speak with your shop steward or your local’s officers to get their support. Unfortunately supervisors and bosses don’t like this approach but you shouldn’t have to lose pay due to their apparent inaction.
The only catch I could see would be a statement in most QIE postings that “you will be appointed to your current assignment level”. See the statement in the “Highway Repairer” NOE. But, if you should have been at a higher assignment level, you should be getting appointed at that higher assignment level as a permanent.
So, if your supervisor, his boss, and/or HR are not responsive then the grievance route would be the way to go. And, although some of the negotiation can be done face-to-face or over the phone, it is VERY important to start documenting these discussions. You can even document via email a discussion that already took place by using words like “As we discussed” or “As per our phone conversation” or similar.
Stay on the union too – they usually like to support larger group issues and the single complaints sometimes get ignored. I know because it happened to me. Maybe in light of recent attacks on unions their support might be better. But don’t let them just poo-poo it… Remember – the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Good luck! -Chris
I was hired several years ago (as management) at a title that there had never had an exam for. Following the guidance of my agency, I took several exams (including those at lower titles) because they had told me that by getting “picked up” off on ANY list would secure my position and salary (as long as I stayed within the agency). Following those instructions, I ultimately got “picked up” at a lower title.
At a point (about 3 years ago) my position was transferred from management to union.
Earlier this year there was a QIE offered. Due to various reasons I did not take the QIE. However, I did take the open competitive exam for that title (which was available shortly after the QIE).
After the QIE list was published, my agency immediately lowered my salary to my “permanent title.”
Based on my conversations with my agency, they claim that because I have been working at my provisional title for MORE THAN TWO YEARS and didn’t take the QIE, they were required to reduce my pay to my permanent title pay scale (which is a significant reduction). They claimed this was at the direction of DCAS.
However, (again after speaking with my agency) if I had been working under the exact same circumstances and taken the exact same test, but had been working under the provisional title for LESS than two years, my job (and salary) would have been essentially safe until the list from the test I took was certified/published so my agency (or other agencies) could have the opportunity to pick me up.
In other words, although I missed out on the “gift” of the QIE, I am in a worse position because I have more experience than someone who has less experience.
Something doesn’t seem right so I am not sure if someone at my agency is misinterpreting a DCAS direction or if I am out of luck.
Hi Wakefield:
Most agencies encourage having a fallback “permanent” position should something happen to your provisional position. This was useful to the managers at HHC who took a hit when they had cutbacks in 2017. But it is unknown if and how much of a salary hit they took by going back to their civil service title. What it did for them is to keep them with a salary and benefits when others without a fallback were just let go. So the recommendation to “secure your position” was a good one, but usually there was no expectation that the salary/pay would not change. So, unless you have it in writing from an “authorized” person that is responsible for handling pay and title issues, I think the pay protection in the fallback title is off the table.
It’s unfortunate that you didn’t take the QIE. What that did was make a list that did two things – help secure the incumbents in their positions and secondly, reduce the provisional count in the city. It would be hard for DCAS to keep you in your provisional status when the whole point of the QIE is to get rid of provisionals.
However, in regards to the less than two years’ scenario, it sounds like it could be legit – there would be no reason to remove a person from the title because they were ineligible to take the test…
Under the provisions of Civil Service Law 65 (CSL65), under section 3, there is a statement of “A provisional appointment to any position shall be terminated within two months following the establishment of an appropriate eligible list… however, that where there are a large number of provisional appointees…and the appointing officer or body deems that the termination of the employment… would disrupt or impair essential public services… may waive the provisions of this subdivision requiring the termination of the employment of provisional appointees within two months following the establishment of an appropriate eligible list… however, that in no case shall the employment of any such provisional appointee be continued longer than four months following the establishment of such eligible list.”
So, what I read seems to say that with an “appropriate eligible list” no provisional appointee can continue longer than four months (best case) following the establishment of the list. This might also cause issues with any other provisionals in your title. And, being that it’s not a “typical” list (open competitive or promotional) I don’t know if a QIE list is an “appropriate eligible list”.
This is where I “run out of road” and suggest you run it by the union of take it to a lawyer. Your point is a good point and, if there are others in that title but were not qualified to take the QIE, it could be suggested that you were treated unfairly. But if there are no others, then it becomes an academic exercise and the CSL65 “provisional” stipulations will be effective in providing defense to the city in why they could revert you to the lower title.
Good luck and hopefully they’ll pull you off the OC list and bring your salary back up – Chris
I have a question I’m a MWM for NYC Saniaton their are high number of us around 50 that are provisional and most of us have more then 2 years in some of us have 8 years in. Could you give me any insight on to when this will help us or give us a shot at being permanent
Hi,
I did a bit of checking and I don’t find anything about a QIE for MWM nor do I see an upcoming test. I don’t find anything about an existing list either so everyone may be safe for now but this might be something you’d want to talk with your HR about.
The new DCAS exam list comes out July 1st so we’ll have to wait an see if they test this year. It does sound like a lot of provisionals, and after the recent terminations of provisional FDNY EMT’s, it’s getting a bit uncomfortable in being provisional.
Most of their stories are a bit different because some thought they were already permanent and didn’t take another test, others report that they were advised that they were permanent. So not quite the same. But it is certain that the city is very serious in cutting down on provisionals.
You may want to stay in touch with the union too so they can help support in encouraging a test. You definitely want that permanent status.
If I get notice I’ll update it here.
Good luck! – Chris
This isn’t strictly QIE related, but I’m just curious if anyone knows about the NYC’s government policy on teleworking. I work as financial support at the NYC Dept. of Ed, and know primarily, most of my work can be done from home.
I found this new bill: https://www.nysenate.gov/legislation/bills/2017/s7717
If I’m interpreting it right, per the bill, the NYC government must establish telework guidelines for employees. The bill is for teleworking to help reduce commute congestion in NYC.
However, at my current job, the division I’m in within the NYC DOE has pretty much said telework is not allowed.
Using that bill, would I be able to make a case for teleworking…even if it was just teleworking one day a week?
Thanks for any help you can provide!
I just received a list number yesterday. Can an agency not pick you up if you’ve received 100% on the QIE Exam? DCAS made it sound as if the QIE is a gift and if and when you passed and a list was established, the Agency was required to make one permanent…
Hi Mr. Racing:
In reading through NYC Civil Service Law 65 under paragraph 5, section c-2:
“(i) DCAS may administer a qualified incumbent examination (“QIE”) for appointment to any competitive title, consistent with subparagraph (ii) of this paragraph, exclusively to current employees who, at the time of application to take such examination, have served provisionally in such title for two or more years. Provided that the employee taking such examination shall meet the minimum educational and other specified requirements set forth in the notice of examination for the title in which he or she currently serves, as established by the DCAS employers, an employee with two years of provisional service may be appointed from the list resulting from such examination.” (Emphasis added)
So, the big word is “may”. If an agency chooses not to make someone a permanent from the QIE then they aren’t supporting the provisional reduction plan as required by the city.
If there is a promotional list in effect for the title, then that has to be exhausted first:
“(iv) A list resulting from a promotional examination for a title must be exhausted before a list resulting from a QIE for that title may be established.”
So, it is in the agency’s best interest to make you a permanent – for their own compliance if not for the benefit of the employee. But, I guess the agency could make a case before DCAS if they had good reason to keep provisionals (and I would think that is highly unlikely…)
If you are in a union supported title and have concerns with getting picked up I would get in touch with your local to get their support. If you’re in a management title you could try the NYCMEA, but they don’t have much clout…
Hope this helps – Chris
Hi again Chris :
I have another situation for myself I was once a civil service permanent employee. I lost my job I was terminated under something called section 72 or 73 disability termination . I became very ill and my health is highly confidential . I wonder is there a timeframe for applying for reinstatement . I hear you have 1 year after disability has ended. What if my disability doesn’t end ? But I can now work with the disability ? I’ve been out longer than 1 year. Can I apply for reinstatement ? Also what happens if I start all over meaning take test and qualify and get on eligible list ? DC 37 will not help me as I’m no longer a member
Thank you
Hi Dorene:
I am not very familiar with this; however, I found some information that may be of help.
Under the Personnel Rules and Regulations of the City of New York, Rule 6, section 6.2.5. “Reinstatement After Separation for Disability”:
(a) Where an employee has been separated from the service by reason of a disability resulting from occupational injury or disease as defined in the workers’ compensation law, such employee shall be entitled to a leave of absence for at least one year unless the disability is of such a nature as to permanently incapacitate the employee from the performance of the duties of the position.
So that may be where the one year comes from.
But, there is a document that is titled “Medical Appeals and Reinstatements Sections 71/72/73” that might be relevant. It doesn’t seem to indicate a time period or other “statute of limitation” so maybe you have a chance.
Hopefully this helps and best of luck! – Chris
Hello Chris :
Hi what happens to a provisional MTA wrker thats is in upcoming eligible list ? Will they lose their job ? A bunch of MTA workers were hired provisionally and are currently waiting for a list to be certified, what happens if the person passes and is reachable on eligible list ?
Thank you
Hi Dorene:
If the provisional worker is on the list, the agency usually tries to “reach” the provisional. Sometimes this is not possible – usually because the person is too low on the list and they can’t bypass the other candidates because of the 1 in 3 rule (I did a post on that here). So, it is quite possible that someone not reachable can be replaced with someone hired off the list.
The agency wouldn’t typically dismiss an employee without a replacement, so provisionals wouldn’t usually lose their job prior to an appointment of someone from a list – the job still needs to get done. And, depending on the title, if there are a large number of persons on a list, sometimes an agency may wait for other units within the agency or other groups/agencies to pare the list down so they can reach their desired candidate – if that title is broad enough to have others use the list too.
Now, if a person is on a list and reachable, the agency only has to choose one out of the three candidates. Let’s say that there is one opening available and it’s presently filled by a provisional. There are qualified candidates on the list at numbers 1, 2, and 3. Our provisional is number 2 on the list. The agency can choose either 1 or 3 instead of number 2.
Unfortunately, that’s one of the many problems with working as a provisional. Could get risky…
Hope this helps – Chris
So I passed the QIE and am currently on a 3 month probationary period. After the three months, I will be considered a permanent employee with the NYC government. If during that three months I accept a job in the private sector, can I still come back into the city government at a later date to finish out my probationary period. Or is it all lost?
Thank you for your time!
~Phil
Hi Phil:
Under the Personnel Rules and Regulations of the City of New York, Rule V, under “5.2.6. Restoration After Separation From Service; Conditions”:
“A probationer separated from the service for any reason (emphasis added) other than fault or delinquency may be restored by, and at the discretion of, the commissioner of citywide administrative services to the eligible list from which selected, if it be in existence, with the same relative standing thereon for general certification therefrom or for certification to agencies other than the one from which the probationer was separated provided that:
(a) the time during which such person has actually served shall be deducted from the probationary term if such person be again selected by the same agency head; (again, emphasis added)
(b) if selected by another agency head, such person shall be required to serve a full probationary term unless such agency head elects to credit such person with the time theretofore served.”
So, with my layman’s read, it seems that you may be able to return to your same agency (with approval) or go to another agency, but you might have to restart full one year probation at another agency.
If you do make it through probation and become permanent, then under Rule VI http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/html/employees/prr_rule6.shtml Section II, Reinstatements:
“6.2.1. General Provisions.
(a) An employee who has completed a probationary term in a permanent position in the competitive or labor class, and who has resigned or retired therefrom may be reinstated with the approval of the commissioner of citywide administrative services to:
(1) the position from which the employee has resigned or retired, if vacant, or to any similar vacant position in the agency in which the employee was employed; or
(2) to a position in another agency to which the employee would have been eligible for transfer.
(b) Such reinstatement may be made only if the separation from employment was without fault or delinquency on the employee’s part and the head of the agency to whom the employee has applied for such reinstatement is willing to reinstate the employee.”
So, it seems that as a probationer, in general, you would be able to come back as long as there was an active list, you’re on it, and your agency will take you back; and if you’re permanent, you can be returned to “the position from which the employee has resigned or retired, if vacant, or to any similar vacant position in the agency” as long as your agency wants you back.
As always, check with HR or DCAS – although you may be doing a “stealthy” job search and can’t ask – but keep these references handy if you do try and come back. I don’t know of anyone who has done this so I can’t vouch for how it gets done or if there are unique rules regarding QIE status, etc.
Sorry for the long response but I wanted to give you as much info as I have…
Good luck! – Chris
Oh wow, this is great info Chris! Thank you so much for the thorough information. Very helpful! 😀
so in one case of NYC scheduling a QIE while at the same time on the schedule there also exist a schedule for the promotional and open competitive exam for the same title….violation of the state amendment to the civil service law that allows QIE to be offered if no exams for the title are on the schedule…that action NYC took was to cancel the open competitive and promotional exams for the subject title. perhaps the exams will reappear in fy 19 . a ploy to show there were no open or promotional exams scheduled so a QIE was established. What should have happened was to cancel the illegal QIE and keep the valid open competitive and promotional on the schedule.
I was in my role for 2 years and 10 months. I took the QIE on 3/21 and passed. From Feb-Mar 21st my manager/hr and his manager — who have been on a purge at my agency — threw together a PIP to claim non-performance in the role and then terminated me on 4/4. I had documented the entire process of my satisfactorily completing the PIP objectives. I am 100% sure that this was done to lock me out of finishing the QIE and becoming ‘permanent’. HR told me — go file an Article 78. Do I have much recourse here? Evidence is beyond any doubt in my favor, but I’ve heard from some that without the civil service title you can be mistreated and unjustly terminated.
Hi Anon:
Boy, that’s a raw deal… and that is the problem being a provisional – hard to defend…
However – you have over two years in your title. If you’re covered by DC37 there is a provision in the citywide contract that covers disciplinary procedures for provisionals that have worked in their title continuously for two years or more. Here’s the link to the citywide contract.
On page two, look under Section 5, subsection “d” that briefly discusses the requirements for eligibility. If you meet that criteria then read down to page 46 – “ARTICLE XVI – DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURE FOR PROVISIONAL EMPLOYEES”.
There is a whole method that needs to be followed – and if they didn’t then you might have a good case – and even if they did, if it was wrongful, there are things you can try.
I recommend that you contact your union representative immediately. If you know who your shop steward is then start with him/her. If you get no help then contact your local directly – the locals can be found here. If you’re a member of the “Blue Collar” locals you may want to call the union directly and ask to speak with the “Blue Collar” representative at (212) 815-1000 (main union number).
You also probably do have a case for an Article 78 proceeding. I’m not a lawyer but it seems there is a 4 month time limit to file against the agency according to this site. You would have to get your own attorney – the Chief has several listed here and they would be able to help you with that.
I hope this helps and give ‘em a good fight. I get angry when they take someone with two years plus of good service and then come up with some BS because they don’t want to keep you permanent.
Good luck! – Chris
Thanks Chris. I was not in DC 37 or any union. I was in a Managerial title — not sure if that matters of not. I have a attorney going through the Article 78. Maybe worth getting in touch with DC37 as you mentioned.
Hi Anon:
Unfortunately that managerial title would knock you out of getting help out of the union… if you were in the Manager’s Employees Association (NYCMEA) you can consult with them but they don’t really have any clout – I’ve consulted them several times when I was in a management title and they couldn’t help me because there was no union backing and they are just “advocates” for managers.
Because I came up through the ranks I usually had a union title to fall back on because I knew they can mess with managers…
Sounds like the attorney & Article 78 is your best bet…
Good luck – Chris
There are QIE exams scheduled while at the same time open competitive and promotional exams are on the schedule for the title as well. The NYS bill that allows cities in NY to offer a QIE clearly states that the QIE is to be offered only in cases where there is no open competitive or promotional test on the schedule. the CSM exam for example is currently offering the QIE exam , while at the same time there are open competitive and promotional CSM exams on the schedule for this summer. this seems to be a violation of the NYS bill that was passed concerning QIE. How is this being allowed?
Hi Citizen:
I didn’t run through the list of exams and comparee dates myself, but it doesn’t seem fair to the incumbents considering (from the NYS bill) “… A LIST RESULTING FROM A PROMOTIONAL EXAMINATION FOR A TITLE MUST BE EXHAUSTED BEFORE A LIST RESULTING FROM A QIE FOR THAT TITLE MAY BE ESTABLISHED.”
So, depending on how quickly a promo test is given and list established, the QIE’s would have to wait until that list is exhausted…
I couldn’t get any clear answers from any of my sources regarding this – nor if a QIE list is quicker to establish than a promotional. I would think it is, but that’s just speculation on my part.
If you get more info please post it here so we can all somehow get through this 🙂
Thanks! – Chris
Hi Chris,
I was looking through the web and ended up at your website. Thanks for answering questions and resolve confusion. My question is a little bit long and complicated. So if you can shed some light I will be greatly appreciated.
I started with the City on 10/15/2007. I served under the title accountant around two years until the first list was established. Then I moved to another title and eventually quit in 2012. I came back as an accountant again on 4/2/2018, for another city agency. My question is does my time served as accountant during 2007-2009 counts for QIE exam purposes? Thanks a lot!
Hi John:
Sorry for the delay – it seems your question was in my spam folder and I didn’t see it until now…
I don’t see anything stating that your time has to be contiguous in the title – a typical NOE has “…You must be currently employed by New York City as a provisional (whatever title) and have served as a provisional
(whatever title) for at least two (2) years and you must meet the following Minimum Qualification Requirements (etc.)…” So, it seems that you have the two years in AND are currently employed in that title.
However, when I read the NYS Bill verbiage, it has “Provisional service performed by an employee during a period in which there existed an appropriate eligible list of candidates for the title would not count toward the two-year service provisional requirement, unless the list was inadequate to fill all positions then held on a provisional basis or was exhausted immediately after its establishment.” So, if there was an active list during that period between 2007 and 2009, and it seems you suggest there might have been one, then your time may not count. Or, if the list came out after you changed title and your former position was filled by a permanent off the list or a provisional that was eligible to be picked up, that too might remove your eligibility with provisional time.
Also, you mentioned that changed to another title, so you couldn’t necessarily argue that the Accountant list was exhausted or inadequate to fill all of the positions – unless your name was on that list and you were never called and can somehow use that for leverage…
My HR contacts retreated to the usual “contact DCAS” defensive position – so I would suggest you do the same. If there wasn’t an established list during the period – or can find out if it was exhausted without filling all vacancies – then it might be a bit more straightforward and I would lean toward that you probably could use the previous time for credit. But only DCAS could provide that kind of information…
Hope this somehow helps! – Good luck, Chris
What is the difference between Promotional and QIE
Thanks
Hi:
The Promotional is an exam for a position that is above the position you’re presently in. For example, the Administrative Construction Project Manager (see page two under “ELIGIBILITY TO TAKE EXAMINATION) is a promotional from the Construction Project Manager, which is an Open Competitive.
A Qualified Incumbent Exam (QIE) is for someone who is provisional in a particular title for over two years and meets the qualifications for that title. This is to help the city reduce the provisional count in that title with the idea that if you’ve been working in that title for two or more years, you probably met the qualifications for the job. The QIE is generally an Education and Experience exam (as compared to a multiple choice or written one).
Hope that helps! – Chris
Hello!
Question…so I took the QIE yesterday and passed. Today, I was offered an interview from a different agency under the same exact civil service title. The interview is scheduled for next week. Will the fact that I took the QIE while at my current agency affect my ability to accept a job at this new agency if one is offered?
I’ve been at my current agency for almost 4 years, and its time for a change. And this new job is absolutely the next step I want to take in my career. But yes, just wondering if passing the QIE at my current agency is going to anchor me hear until I’m officially permanent.
Thank you for any guidance you can provide!
Hi CW:
Congratulations on passing the QIE!
From what I see, there does not seem to be anything that would restrict you from being picked up by another agency as long as there is no break in service and the title is exactly the same.
I looked at the bill that was sent before the NYS Senate and the NYS Assembly and there is nothing that speaks on that you can only be picked off the list by your agency. I suspect the “Incumbent” part of the QIE means only incumbent to the title and not the agency.
Basically when you read the bill, there are specifics on the hierarchy of lists – promotional lists will be exhausted first (if one exists), then QIE lists, then they can pull from open competitive lists.
It’s a great question – and remember, this is just my opinion – I’m not a HR manager or DCAS employee – so I recommend you check it out with either DCAS or the prospective HR department to verify.
And don’t take no for an initial answer. Have them back it up with something that supports their position. I recently had an issue with my HR department who said I’d have to serve a full year’s probation again when I get called off the QIE list. They were incorrect – even within this bill it says “A person appointed from a list resulting from a QIE shall be credited with the time he or she served provisionally in that title toward the probationary period for that title up to a maximum of nine months.” They did acknowledge the error and will credit the nine months.
Good luck! – Chris
Thank you so much for the info Chris! Very helpful. 😀
Hi, could you confirm that QIE date to qualify for at least 2 years, would be the closing date for the application period.
In regards, to this question, the closing date for the position has been extended, making me able to qualify for the 2 years presuming that the end date is the determination 2 year qualifier. I did not get the email from DCAS that I qualified for the exam, due to the circumstance that the end date has been extended, will I be considered?
Hi Donna:
On face value, if you will make two years by the end of the application period you should be good. I’m presuming that’s what you mean by the closing date.
If I’m reading your question right, it looks like you may have applied but didn’t have the two years completed at that time of application. If you didn’t have the full two years prior to the change of the application period but were not immediately rejected, you may be good – but the only way to be confident is to hear it from DCAS themselves – and get it in writing (email) if possible.
Having the two years is necessary but remember that you also need to meet the education and experience requirements.
So, even though it appears you have met the requirement you should contact DCAS yourself. Do NOT expect them to contact you. You may want to also run this by your HR department – but be wary of that too because even they have questions and assumptions about the process that may not be accurate. As you see in the some of the comments below, my HR said at first that I’d have to work through a year’s probation – but after a gentle nudge they checked with DCAS and found it would be reduced to three months.
Check with DCAS and good luck! – Chris
I’m NYC employee for little more than 3 years, I have taken the Qualified Incumbent Examination and I’m about get appointed from the QIE list. My question is the probationary period, do I need to do the probationary period of two years? I have been in the same title for more than 3 years. Thanks
Hi Luis:
Great question – and one I’m going through now with my HR department.
I have a similar situation as you – in my situation I’m almost 3 years in the title, passed the QIE and high on the list, and a total of 30 years of city service.
The problem seems that no one is sure how to handle a QIE. It’s not an open-competitive because you have to be in the position to be eligible to take the test. It’s not quite a promotional because you’re not getting promoted – you’re just looking for permanent status.
My HR says I have to go through the probationary period. My counter to them (presented as nicely as I could) is that there is a DCAS Personnel Services Bulletin (PSB) 200-6R that speaks on probationary periods and various classes of service.
So, I suggested to my HR that the provision under section A, subsection 2, Bullet “b” in the PSB 200-6R, which is “Appointments from a Promotional List” seems to be the most appropriate, especially:
(i) promotee served on a provisional or temporary basis in the same promotion title for a continuous
period equal to or greater than the probationary period for the title; and
(ii) such service was immediately prior to permanent promotion to that title; and
(iii) promotion is to the same title and job assignment or, as determined by the Deputy Commissioner for Citywide Personnel Services, to a similar title and job assignment, in the same agency.
I haven’t received a response back yet but suspect they may not agree. If that changes I’ll post an update but as of now they’re saying I need to do a year’s probation.
Maybe you’ll have some luck – if so, please check back and let me know…
Thanks and Good Luck! – Chris
Quick Update – My agency is willing to reduce the one year probationary period to 3 months. This appears to be based on DCAS’s Personnel Service Bulletin 200-11 and would most likely be a good reference for your agency as well. Good Luck!
My permanent title as of now is Construction Project Manager, working for the same agency and same unit for almost 9 years, now that I’m looking for a promotion to be an APM. Since there are three (3) exams that are going to be available for APM this march 21, 2018. First one is exam # 8410, for QIE, next one is #8042 for open to public and the last one is for promotion. My question is can I be eligible to take all these these exams? I know I’m more qualified to take the promotion. Just to be on the safe side.
Hi Dorbin:
It’s great that you’re in a permanent title and have a good number of years of service. Congratulations.
Now, remember, I’m not an HR person or hiring officer, just a city manager with a bit of experience with various titles and have observed some hiring practices. I say this because I want you to double check with your HR people or DCAS to verify that my commentary is valid or if you have detailed questions.
I don’t think you would qualify to take the APM (Administrative Project Manager) QIE because that is a different title than a Construction Project Manager, and a QIE requires you to be in the title for a minimum of two years and to be in that title when filing for the QIE. Looks like the APM title is a management title (I think title code 83008 from NYC Open Data) and the CPM title (code 34202 from NYC Open Data and an old NOE) suggesting they are different.
You’d have to wait for the NOE to appear for the APM Promotional to see what qualifies as a promotional. I looked at a promotional to Administrative Construction Project Manager (ACPM) and it explains under “Eligibility to Take Examination” that you have to be a “… permanent … Construction Project Manager…” I would suspect that the APM promotional would explain what titles would be eligible.
So, until DCAS provides that info you certainly can apply for the open competitive exam. Of course you’d have all the same requirements as any test – meet the qualifications, take and pass the test, and then be “reachable” if looking to use this within your agency – or wait to be called off the list from another agency.
I hope this helps – and certainly check with your HR or DCAS if any of this doesn’t make sense or you want more details.
Best of luck! – Chris
Hello,
I’m provisional in my title for just over two years and about to take the QIE exam in a couple of weeks. If I pass the exam, and I expect to, will my salary increase from the hiring rate to the incumbent rate?
Hi Karl,
I haven’t seen anyone get a raise or increase when they went from provisional to permanent – but that would really be up to your agency, HR department, or manager. The only thing that would happen would be that your agency would make you a permanent employee – I don’t quite know how much your actual position plays into a QIE list, meaning that do you have to be “reachable” or because this is not an open competitive they can just appoint you from the list. But from what I observed in the past, this will just get you a permanent position and helps the city count down the number of provisionals they have on the books.
I’m nyc employee and worked for over 2 years with the same agency and same division. I started in non-competitive class “community associate” with same division for more than 2 yrs and was promoted to a title in competitive class “accountant” having the same division and work responsibilities. Im wondering if I would be qualified for incumbent qualifying exam for accountant? I serve the same division, same agency and same work responsibilities. It is just my title change from non-competitive to competitive title.
Hi:
To take a Qualified Incumbent Exam (QIE) requires you to be IN THAT TITLE for a minimum of two years. It’s not related to how long you’ve worked for an agency or the particular task you’ve been doing but only in the Civil Service Title that you’re in. I found that the filing is open under QIE exams at the DCAS website for Administrative Accountant from 2/21/2018-3/6/2018. When I look at that Notice of Examination (NOE) it says on page 2 “…served as a provisional Administrative Accountant for at least two (2) years…”
I’ve taken an online QIE myself, and if I recall correctly I think that may be the first question. I was lucky that I was in my particular title for about two and a half years so I was eligible and answered “yes” to the two year minimum question. However, there was another QIE for my former position – and even though I had over 13 years in that position, I was not “currently employed by New York City as a provisional…” in that title and would not have qualified for the QIE even though I have a substantial amount of experience in that title and with that particular job.
Remember that you must meet all of the other requirements of the title as described in the posting. Using the example of Administrative Accountant, if someone had the two years in but no college or NYS CPA license, they still would not qualify.
If you have more questions you may want to check with your HR department or DCAS directly through 311 (if you live in the city) or call them at (212) 669-1357.
Best of luck! – Chris
No you have to hold the title “Accountant” for 2 years with no break. So if you go from Accountant to Community Assoc back to Accountant, that time between the Accountant title is not counted. You basically start the time count all over.
Hello:
January 27th, 2018 – I will be two years in a rpovisional title.
The QIE for the position is January 4th 2018 .
Is that consider two years?
Reply
Hi “R”:
All of the Notice of Examinations (NOE’s) state “All education, license(s), certification(s) and/or experience used to meet the Minimum Qualification Requirements must have been obtained by the last day of the Application Period.” I don’t see any QIE exams for January 4th on the list (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/downloads/pdf/misc/yearly_examschedule.pdf) but it looks like the NOE’s have 10 Business days for the application period. So with a QIE period starting January 4th, you would have to have your two years in by January 18th (skipping Martin Luther King Jr. Day which is a city holiday on January 15th). Looks like you’re just short of it. You may want to speak with your HR department or DCAS to confirm – you’re very close…
Good luck!
No it’s not. I hate to say it but it’s cut and dry with DCAS. It’s two years no less. Many people are in that boat and DCAS will not budge. It’s not even up to the agency, in fact it’s not even up to DCAS as they are overseen by the NYS Civil Service Commission who urged DCAS to get rid of all provisionals as soon as it’s practicable. This is why they enacted the 2 year QIE law. You will have to wait until the Open Competitive exam is made available.
You have to have 2 years by the time QIE is made available. For example, on 11/28/17 is beginning of the filing period and you don’t have the 2 year min requirement, you are disqualified. If you have at least 2 years by 11/28/17 then yes you qualify. Your HR dept will cannot tell you what the requirements as only DCAS who is overseen by the NYS Civil Service Commission can dictate that policy. I’m afraid from what I read above you will have to take the exam on an open competitive basis in order to qualify and MUST be reachable when the list is generated.
Hi:
I would be careful not to discount the information your HR department can provide. I suspect it might depend on the agency. For my agency they’re pretty up on what’s going on – even to the point of advising those in a title of the upcoming exam and that they meet the qualifications. It is true that the agency and DCAS must comply in order to reduce provisional counts. And it’s good to take civil service tests to try to gain permanent status. However, you must temper your test taking with what makes sense – otherwise it will get very expensive. No sense taking a “Supervisor of Mechanics” exam if you’re a “Certified LAN Administrator”. Thanks for the input!
Only if it’s the same title and a QIE is available for that title. They are not giving QIE’s for every title.
Another thing I also want to mention is to take as many as tests as possible for positions you qualify for even if you don’t like what the job descriptions entails. It’s worth the 60 or 70 dollars for an insurance policy in case you are dismissed as a provisional. Yes, the city and state both are taking very seriously the matter of getting rid of provisionals. Believe me when I tell you I was one of them and all the experience, letters of commendation, and excellent attendance record goes out the window when it comes to these civil service laws. Get on as many lists as possible. You increase your odds. Again good luck.
I started a city job as a provisional few months ago. I know i have to take the exam to be permanent. Do i have to stay two years to be able to take the QIE exams?
Hi Faria. Unfortunately that seems to be the case. The DCAS website doesn’t specifically spell it out but when you select a QIE Notice of Examination (NOE) it does explain that within the NOE. I went to the list of monthly QIE exams at the DCAS site (http://www.nyc.gov/html/dcas/html/work/exam_monthly.shtml) and selected several to verify it and each one I selected did have the two year requirement. The requirement is not just that you worked for the city for two years but that you worked in that SAME title for the city. So if you were promoted out of a title, I think the clock starts up on the new title and stops on the old one. This happened to me. If you fit into that category you may want to call DCAS and speak with them directly for clarification – their contact information is a little evasive – if you’re in the city you can call 311 or 212-NEW-YORK if outside NYC and ask for DCAS, or peck through their menu at (212) 669-1357. Good luck!
The NOE is black and white. No gray areas that include “could” or “perhaps”. Basically if you have don’t have two years in a given title you’re out of luck and must take the open competitive test with the rest of the world and hope you’re reachable. Do I agree with this process? No. It should be OR and NOT AND when it comes to the requirements but hey it is what it is. good luck!